On October 11, 2015, at the General Conference Annual Council meeting a document was presented that appealed to unions to abide by the July 9, 2015 decision rejecting regional ordination of women to pastoral ministry. The document is titled, “Appeal and Appreciation to All Church Entities and Members From GC and Division Officers Regarding GC Session Vote on Ordination.” Text of the document here:
Appeal-Church-Entities-Members
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48 replies on “AC document asks unions accept WO decision”
Sad story.
Here it is, another toothless appeal. It seems like the elders at AC unable to open their eyes and recognize that rejecting WO in the Church contradicts to the Worlds laws, but accepting WO contradicts to the Bible teaching. I didn’t find any recommendation in this appeal how to combine them together. Did you?
So this appeal in practical sense is useless.
Sad, sad story.
Is there any follow up action if the “we ask you” request is not accepted?
The Pacific Union, appears to me, to be in a “I dare you world church” stand.
Maybe even “I double dare you world church.”
DId Jesus say: “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples . . .
if you argue, rebel, and double-dare one another”. . . ?
Satan has won through California culture.
“Thank you PC PU,” sayeth Satan, “Now try bringing a Californian into SDAism and watch them laugh and come back to me.”
Many in CA have not bowed the knee to Baal, but the PU will not represent them.
I live in Southern California.
I support Ted Wilson, the world church, and San Antonio vote.
God’s will is expressed in a world church vote.
Jesus came to show us how to submit to God’s will.
I pray that Ted Wilson is surrounded by assistants with more wisdom than Aaron.
As some of us dance around the golden calf.
And others try their best to march towards Caanan.
It is judgmental to attribute PUC as Satan! Being judgmental is a sin just like the sins you are accusing others of.
Satan thanks each and every one of us who cause others to not take God seriously. Satan thanked Eve and Adam. Satan has even thanked me on occasions when I have been less than I should have been in front of onlooking nonChristians. Yes, Satan thanks those causing the church to look like chaos. God is a God of order; and the PU has brought chaos to California churches. Satan is happy.
Read “Reflections on San Antonio” to see how several small steps has led to the chaos the church finds itself today.
http://www.secretsunsealed.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/3QTR15News-web.pdf
Who of my nonChristian friends will not question the worth of our message when the messengers are running in opposite directions? This makes me very sad and very angry. I am not a lifelong SDA, and I am embarrassed.
We must wait patiently. God bore long with Lucifer and his followers during his rebellion in heaven. The deceivers must be unmasked, the fruits of their character revealed before rebellion can be quelled with justice. All within the church must decide who’s side they are on. There will come a point where pleas and entreaties can do no more and God will show our true leaders when that point is and the rebellious will be shaken out.
My wife and I came to the same conclusion as we shared our frustration re this matter. So we’ve been praying for God’s patience to be ours, and an acceptance of God’s will and timing; and for wisdom to be given to our leaders at the GC, and that God’s people would search the scriptures for themselves. We believe that there is a limit–a point beyond which rebellion is never allowed to go. During this testing period, may we remain faithful and maintain the sweet spirit of Christ.
I don’t think this is right position in this case.
While we demonstrate tolerance and patience, the desease are going to spread more and more. Next appeal will be issued next year, then another year, and then another one..
And when some breaking point get reached, it will be too late to change anything.
Just take a look at the dynamic of voting on this matter and you will see that this is not just exercising of patience but certain agenda. For how long we have this issue?
And this Annual Counsel avoid to propose any solution again.
If you remember the policy allowed ordination until we get clarification on the matter of ordination. Supposedly we should have it at the last GC session, but it never happen.
I would hope that this AC will change something, but it seem my hope failed again.
So this policy continue to work.
And the more delay we have, the deeper in the trouble we get as the Church.
It is a good practice to have a patience to individuals (within certain reasonable limits), but the bad one if you create delay in surgical treatment. You don’t want to loose your finger? just wait a bit longer and you will loose your hand.
And we aren’t talking about some certain people here, we’re talking about devastating the Church by devision.
So showing tolerance or patience is not the solution in this case.
As I said before, basically we have contradiction between world’s laws and Bible teaching and this appeal actually doesn’t address to the issue.
The leaders may just be dealing with it. We have to keep in mind this has been brewing for a while. Just like the rebellion in heaven. Only now, the true spirit behind this movement is starting to be unmasked. When it grows to open and stubborn revolt then chances are it will have gone far enough. When more gentle appeals do not work, firmer measures will be implemented I’m sure. The goal is not to throw the supporters of WO out. It is to get them to turn and repent. If the leaders act too quickly and rashly then there will be a risk of uprooting wheat rather than tares.
I don’t see any problem with waiting longer, since I have no choice anyway 🙂
But I’m afraid in a year or so things can change and decisions then will be made not by you, but about you. At least I clearly see that the situation is developing to this very point.
I hope and pray that it would never happen, but..
You state “While we demonstrate tolerance and patience,” as a bad thing. Has Jesus been tolerant and patient with you?
Patience not a bad thing at all, but it doesn’t help much in this situation but rather make it worse. Once again, this is not about some individuals but about all of us as people.
Straight talk would be the ultimate treatment in this case.
I believe it.
A couple of comments on previous postings.
1. In the case of ancient Israel, there really was no limit to their rebellion. Because of this, the people “unchurched themselves” and were ultimately destroyed by the Romans (12MR 388.1). God honors freedom of choice, and doesn’t force individuals or groups to follow Him.
2. If you look at 3T 280.3, it says very clearly that it’s the responsibility of leaders to deal with rebellion. If they don’t, then the Lord has other means to work out His purposes, but it becomes problematic in such a scenario to say that the church will triumph. Yes it will triumph, but the meaning of “church” in such a case might be different than what we normally think.
Agree.
In fact, God let ancient apostolic church turn into the catholic one. Are we much different or something?
If someone wants to rebel, God let him to rebel. We don’t have to deceive ourself on this matter.
After all, read the prophecy on the last days of Jerusalem in Zach.14 –
“For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”
The TOSC efforts clearly indicate that the ordination of women is not an issue that is clearly defined in the Bible. Those who claim that women are incapable or inappropriate for leadership are just as likely to be wrong as those of us who believe that they should participate in equal roles and measure. The narrow-souled judgmentalism evidenced by many who comment on this website cause me to question my willingness to continue to support the Seventh-day Adventist church I grew up in and served all my life. I don’t see Christ here anywhere.
Is there any one here who claims that the women incapable for leadership or something like that? I hear this accusation quiet often, but never actually see this statement coming from anyone. Do you?
But questioning yourself about your good will towards the Church is a good thing anyway. It helps me personally to fight my doubts.
So may God help you to recognize Him in His Church and in this discussion in particular.
Blessings!
Sure. To deny women ordination is to inhibit their participation in leadership. Look at the delegates to General Conference. I don’t have the figures in front of me, but the representation of women there was a substantial minority, yet in church membership, they’re a majority. There are some here who are calling for the revocation of the existing policy to ordain women elders. Why? Because they believe they’re inappropriate to be involved in church leadership, even at the local church level.
Revocation of present policy will be made sooner or latter anyway, because it was voted primarily as a temporary document.
“To deny women ordination is to inhibit their participation in leadership.”
So what? It doesn’t mean they cannot be leaders. They can be leaders in some other businesses, cannot they?
Of course women can be leaders – if they’re allowed to be them. Do you see the difference between “can” and “allowed to”?
I can quote Bible texts which LITERALLY forbid women to be leaders. That means this is not a human decision but God’s one.
And actually struggling for WO is nothing but struggling against God’s will expressed in the Bible.
But there is strange difficulties with literal reading of the Bible. Many people reject direct reading because it doesn’t go along with their paradigm. They accept what they want to and reject things which as they might think is not applicable to them.
And this is the real issue – the problem actually lies in their paradigm and not in the Bible.
I.e. before we start dealing with WO we have to make a choice between “The Bible and the Bible only” and “My interpretation of the Bible is the ultimate truth”.
And I dare to remind everyone that Adventists Church states that it follows the principle “The Bible and the Bible only” and that this is the only base for the church union.
That is not accurate. The TOSC was unable to find consensus on the issue. That is because some members believe in the literal interpretation and others believe in a cultural application of the Bible.
Please don’t misstate this very important point
Do you understand how you would have to live if there were no cultural application?
How about living as a Cristian, new creature with new culture?
Andrian, are you suggesting that converts to Christianity and the SDA Church should be required to give up their culture in order to become church members? Isn’t their native language a part of their culture? What language would they speak as Christians to replace their native tongue?
Andrian, are you suggesting that converts to Christianity and the SDA Church should be required to give up their culture in order to become church members?
Within Christian community – yes. Actually this is not a suggestion – “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new”.
Speaking of language – this is not a part of the culture because primarily any language comes from God.
Dancing, smoking, drinking, stealing, many other things of this kind – this is cultural and belongs to this word.
But these things – “.. whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” – all of these are not of this word and cannot be called cultural.
So, Andrian, your definition of “culture” is “sins?”
My definition of “culture,” then, differs from yours. My definition of culture goes something like this: the learned values, behaviour patterns, and products of a social group.
I believe converts to Christianity should give up their sins, not their culture.
Ok, now lets check your definitions. I don’t think they are much different.
Your “Learned values’ will change as soon as you get converted –
“Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ“.
Your “behavior patterns” will change also –
“That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;”
“Product of social group” apparently will be different from everything you had before (which is obvious, since you belong to Christian group now) –
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”
As you can see, your definitions fits to my one very well – from the Biblical point of view.
No, only the evil values will change.
No, only the evil behavior will change.
No, only the evil products will change.
A Mexican will still be a Mexican after conversion to Christianity.
That’s against the Bible teaching, sorry.
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
He is talking of ALL things, not just some bad things.
So if you still keep your nationality as something valuable, you’re not belong to the heavenly kingdom but to some earthly state.
“..have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.”
You sound like you must be a Calvinist who believes in the Total Depravity of humanity including all human behaviour and everything that human beings produce. Even though everything God created was “very good,” it sounds like you believe sin has eradicated 100% of the goodness, so that only evil remains. Are you suggesting if a man manufactures and sells plumbing fixtures, those plumbing fixtures are evil? Must he find a new line of work after he becomes a Christian? Plumbing fixtures are artifacts of culture. Not all of culture is evil. Other examples of “good” cultural artifacts include ploughs for farmers to plough the soil, braces for straightening teeth, books for learning how to speak Spanish, laws to control speeding, and electric lights to light our houses at night. Must we give up all of these things when we become a Christian? Have they all passed away?
Are you suggesting I should get rid of my Canadian passport because I am no longer Canadian? What is evil about saying I am a Canadian Christian?
Doug, you go too far in your conclusion.
We were talking of culture and Christianity, weren’t we? So let’s stay around this topic.
You don’t have to be mad at me because I quote the Bible and present biblical paradigm to you.
I totally understand and accept it, but you seem to have some issue with that.
There is not such a title as Canadian Christians. There are Christians that dwelling in Canada.
And accordingly there should be no difference between Christians living in Canada and Christians living in Brazil or Mexico or Italy or wherever else.
Christianity stays above nationality, above culture and above anything that may divide people on whatever basis, because Christianity is nothing but submission to the God’s Word and the God’s Spirit.
If the Spirit or the Word make any difference in culture, than yes, that’s important.
But the Bible doesn’t say a word about it.
Which means, any cultural difference is strange to the Word and to the Spirit of God Almighty.
Blessings!
Not angry at all, Andrian. Just disagree. If God ignores nationalities, why did Paul say to the Greek philosophers on Mars Hill that “God made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth?”
Red and yellow black and white–all are precious in his sight. So precious that he does not obliterate all racial, national, and ethnic distinctions when people follow Jesus.
How can the leaves of the tree of life be for the healing of the nations (Rev 22:2) if the nations have been obliterated by Christianity?
And what about the “great multitude” of redeemed humanity standing before the throne and the Lamb wearing white robes (Rev 7:9)? We are told they are “made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language.” If nationality ceases at conversion, what sense can we make of this passage?
“why did Paul say to the Greek philosophers on Mars Hill that “God made every nation of the human race to inhabit the entire earth?” “
Because it’s true, God created them by creating many languages.
But was it His primary plan or He were constrained to do that?
Obviously it wasn’t his intension from the beginning to separate people by nations, neither it will be on the new Earth.
I never read in the New Testament anything about multi-cultural or multi-national aspect of Christianity.
“If nationality ceases at conversion, what sense can we make of this passage?”
They were gathered from many nations but in meanwhile they joined to the people of God and don’t belong to their nations anymore. Just remember Ruth, because this is the same situation.
Andrian, have you always believed that Christianity obliterates national and ethnic identity? If not, where did you get it from? Do you also believe the Bible teaches that Christianity destroys gender identity? Paul said, “There is neither male nor female,” Gal 3:28. Do you take that literally as you seem to take Colossians 3:11?
Andrian, please read Acts 11:19-21 and Acts 13:1. Both of these passages refer to multi-national, multi-ethnic Christianity in Antioch.
“Andrian, have you always believed that Christianity obliterates national and ethnic identity?”
Not always, of course, but from the time I was converted and baptized. Now I see no difference between Christians of different nations as far as they have God’s spirit and obey God’s word.
The difference between man and woman affects only their functionality, lets put it this way.
Even though Paul says “There is neither male nor female”, obviously man is still man and women is still woman. And the following phrase explains what he means by that – “for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”, i.e. they are united in Christ. It doesn’t mean we cannot see physical differences between some John and Peter, for example, but in spiritual sense they are one.
The same is true concerning to man and women. There are physical differences between them, there are different functions they should exercise, but in spiritual sense they are one.
And any other reading of this passage would sound rather absurdly.
Now, lets talk about Acts 11 and 13. I see not any multicultural differences in these passages. They all were Christians and they all were spreading the Gospel to many nations. They didn’t preach Antiochian or Hellenistic gospel, neither they preached any other national or cultural gospel, since there is not such a thing as national gospel. Yes, they were converted from many nations, but converted into unity with Jesus Christ in whom there is no national or cultural difference.
Blessings.
PS:
I just wonder where did you find this multi-cultural idea and why do you grasp it so hard? As far I as I know evangelists don’t preach multicultural gospel at their programs. Is this your personal believe or something? What is so valuable in it and how it enrich your Communion (putting aside the obvious separation between believers)?
Andrian, I got it from observation. I have never noticed that baptism changes the ethnic identity of anybody. I have lived in 5 countries during my 68 years. The Americans, Japanese, Indonesians, Koreans, and Canadians in these 5 countries are all still Americans, Japanese, Indonesians, Koreans, and Canadians after baptism.
Well, I can say something directly opposite to your observation. Converted people usually become strangers to any society including national ones. And this is not because they do or say something against the society. Not at all. But they are strangers just because of the Spirit and the Word of God that they accepted. This Spirit and the Word are not of this word and the people of the word feel it somehow and react accordingly.
So I don’t understand, how converted Christian could stay within their previous national identity with all their attributes and requirements.
It just sounds totally weird.
I never said anything about ALL their attributes and requirements. The born again Christian will give up any attribute, requirement, behaviour, custom, or value that is antagonistic to Bible principles.
At the same time, the converted Christian will show honour and respect for thousands of attributes, behaviours, customs, and values associated with his or her national identity. And the Christian will respect and appreciate the ethnic and cultural values and customs of other ethnic groups.
As Paul put it, “To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews . . . . To those free from the law [the Gentiles] I became like one free from the law 9though I am not free from God’s law but under the law of Christ) to gain those free from the law. To the weak I became weak in order to gain the weak. I have become al things to all people, so that by all means I may save some” (1 Cor 9:20-22).
And, “Do not give offense to Jews or Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also try to please everyone in all things. I do not seek my own benefit, but the benefit of the many, so that they may be saved” (1 Cor 10:32-33).
It looks like the SDA Church in Italy is also joining the rebellion against inequality in ministry. Here is a rough translation of the Italian Union report this weekend.
With 250 votes, the Executive Committee of the UICCA, in session on 16 September 2015, unanimously voted the following:
CONSIDERING that the question of the ordination of women was already on the agenda of the 1950 General Conference (GC);
WHEREAS since then, many theological commissions have followed on the study of biblical indications about this subject;
CONSIDERING that the issue was revived at the 1990 GC in Indianapolis;
WHEREAS the debate on this issue continued for the next 5 years, and the topic was again placed on the agenda of the 1995 GC in Utrecht, within which it was already appropriately shown that there is no biblical impediment to ordination;
CONSIDERING the outcome of the 2015 GC Session in San Antonio, which was on the basis of the question raised by the Plenary Executive Committee of the GC on 13 October 2014: “Do you support a delegate to each Division to decide whether or not to proceed to the consecration of women to the pastoral ministry, yes or no?; the majority of the delegates responded “No”, despite the theological decision expressed by the global commission (TOSC), which, as expressed in biblical and theological terms, does not impede the ordination of women;
CONSIDERING the unanimous opinion of the pastors, expressed at the UICCA Pastoral Conference held from 1 to 5 September 2013;
CONSIDERING the 633 votes the Executive Committee had at the XXIV session of 24-25 September 2013;
CONSIDERING the 45 votes taken at the LX session of its national assembly on 25 February 2014;
The UICCA feels compelled to launch a signal, respectful but powerful, dissent and protest for the vote of the GC Session, in the name of unity of the Church, a vote which violates the basic principles of freedom, and overrides the beliefs of religious and
cultural characteristics of different territories.
In the name of defending the dignity of women pastors operating in our territory, we cannot accept that their ministry will continue to be held in a not-fully-recognized status, and therefore, discriminated against.
The UICCA will evaluate appropriate actions to express such disagreement in a tangible way with administrative actions.
I do not know who writes the documents that are brought before annual council, but I am afraid they are very naïve regarding the nature of sin. Basically the document suggests that those who vote in favor of it must believe what is in the Working Policies and the Church Manual. The fact is that the working policies and the church manual are not as clear on the matter as some are suggesting. They can easily be misinterpreted and misconstrued. Having leaders at annual council approve of this document means nothing regarding what the voters actually believe. Those supporting women’s ordination not only misinterpret the working policies and the church manual, they also misinterpret and twist even what was voted at the 2015 GC Session. We too quickly forget that sin is very self-deceptive. It twists truths to fit its own desires. Those who are still holding onto the idea of continuing to ordain women in the SDA Church have no problem supporting this document as it is written. It needed to be much more precise. The document is so politically correct, that it never got to spelling out the real issue. I hope that its authors were simply naïve rather than secretly crafting a document for annual council that would be worthless–but that is exactly what this document, and the vote in favor of it, appears to be.
What the author is using is called pluralism.
A Unified Church, Part 4: What Members Can Do When Things Go Astray
Amen! When people meticulously working on “proper” wording in every document, the result of it would be such a statement that everyone can turns it into his own use.
Two things of the document are questionable. First, that this paper was only created by few leading members of the GC-Committee and second, that no discussion of it was performed. Several unions are in rebellion and no discussion about this big problem (?). Ted Wilson and the GC-leaders neglected their duty, to speak with the whole Committee about the rebellion und to put it according to the working policy to an end. As a collective body the whole church is responsible and guilty, if they do nothing against it. The unions can do what they want und rebell, but Ted Wilson speaks about Mission only?! The church is in the greatest crisis than ever before and Ted Wilson speaks in his sermon about mission. That is very, very sad, and the church cannot stand before God! The GC in unable to make a clear cut and so the whole church is infected and will die! Open sin we have to handle immediately, this says Ellen White very clear and the bible too (see Joshua and Achan)!
We do need to be careful; as you state a few members voted. There are many with strength and conviction within those Unions that want nothing to do with this.
A group at Andrews has now given up their Ordination in protest. I am sorry to be a little blunt; but I have no desire for these rebellious children to be around my families or children. Well less teach anyone’s children.
Are we not suppose to separate? 2 Corinthians 6:14 “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?”
Proverbs 28:26 “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.” I think we have enough fools, trusting in their own heart.
What about the rest of us that can read the BIBLE, understand it belongs and leads all, is not open to individual interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) and does not contain vain commands of men (Matthew 15:9, Mark 7:7)? Can we consider these actions any more than foolish, rebellious children? Running up and down the isles and tearing the House down? Our responsibility though; the actions of the prodigy that we raised. Created by an environment that we allowed. A total lack of the commanded strength and conviction in zealous protection of the Church; along with total disregard to the messages to the Churches. Absolute proof of what happens when we don’t follow HIS PLAN and continue.
Now that Washington Conf has eliminated the distinction between ordained and commissioned, what will CAP pastors do? Resign and separate?
The Washington Conference has changed neither the Bible nor the decision of the General Conference in session on July 8, 2015. Twenty restless persons on a conference committee don’t overrule a decision by 1300 delegates from the world field.
It sounds about right, twenty usually don’t overcome 1300, but are they continue to be restless within the Church or some administrative action are going to be made? And who is going to call that people to order, GC in 5 years? This is so messy, I’m just tired to hear all that senseless news.
Jesus is coming soon!
Amen!