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Pacific Union rebels against GC WO decision

It was revealed today that the Pacific Union executive committee voted September 9, 2015 to reaffirm its 2012 decision to ordain women to positions of pastoral leadership in spite of the July 9 decision of the 2015 General Conference session. That decision voted by the majority of delegates of the world church strongly denied independent action to ordain women to positions of ordained pastoral ministry by Divisions, Unions, and Conferences.
According to the Pacific Union Recorder,

“The committee pledged its support for its female pastors and said it would continue to abide by the union constituency’s 2012 mandate to ‘approve ordinations to the gospel ministry without regard to gender.’ The committee also asked the union officers in collaboration with the union communication department, to craft a strong statement in support of women clergy and to create a comprehensive strategy for educating local church members about the practical implications of the 2012 Pacific Union and 2015 General Conference votes, as well as church structure and authority” (“Pacific Union Executive Committee Pledges Support for Women Pastors,” Pacific Union Recorder, October 2015, p. 34).

The 2012 action was in contradiction to world church policy then. Our world church president pled earnestly with those assembled at that constituency meeting to avoid acting in opposition to the world church, and humbly stated that the Union’s contemplated unilateral action could lead to grave consequences.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church requires the Constitution and Bylaws of Unions and Conferences to conform to model documents included in General Conference working policy. These documents do not permit unions or conferences to ordain women to positions of ordained minister, a role biblically and via denominational policy, reserved to spiritually qualified males. Nevertheless, the “Pacific Union Conference Executive Committee and Officers”

“views full participation and recognition of women in pastoral ministry as vitally important for Spirit-filled ministry within our territory, and we will continue to abide by the 2012 mandate of our constituency to ‘approve ordinations to the gospel ministry without regard to gender’” (“A Pledge of Support for Women in Ministry,” Pacific Union Recorder, October 2015, p. 36,

“The Holy Spirit gifts people of every age, gender, and ethnic background according to His purposes, and we encourage women of all ages and backgrounds who feel called to ministry to answer, ‘Speak Lord, your servant is listening’ (1 Samuel 3:10). We are committed to supporting women in every aspect of ministry and church leadership, whether they are licensed, commissioned, or ordained” (Ibid.).

But the Pacific Union 2012 constituency decision exceeded the authority granted by the Seventh-day Adventist world church to that Union. Just as unions have no authority to create independent belief statements or unilaterally craft local standards for baptism, neither has the world church at any time granted unions authority to set their own qualifications for ordination to pastoral ministry. In the Seventh-day Adventist Church, ministerial ordination carries worldwide authority. But the Pacific Union says it will embark upon a campaign to “educate” its members about what the executive committee wants the July 9 world church decision to mean.
Pacific Union leaders “rejoice in the opportunity to share in this great work, and we reassert our support for women in ministry in the strongest possible terms” (Pacific Union Recorder, October 2015, p. 36). But again, the Pacific Union executive committee is conflating the phrase “women in ministry” with the idea of “women’s ordination.” Women can and are serving the Lord Jesus in ministry in numerous ways all across the church, and without trespassing into roles which Scripture and thousands of years of practice have clearly reserved to spiritually qualified males.
Reaction from the Pacific Union is starting to come in. Stephen Bohr, Fresno Seventh-day Adventist Church, Central California Conference, writes

“It was with deep sadness that I saw that the PUC Executive Committee voted on September 9 to openly and defiantly rebel against God’s will as expressed by the world church in San Antonio. The fact that the PUC vote comes immediately before the October 7-14 Annual Council makes one wonder whether the PUC Executive Committee is daring the GC Executive Committee to do something about their rebellious decision. A mere verbal rebuke by the Annual Council will accomplish nothing. The question is: Will the Pacific Union’s money prevail, as it has done in the past, or will the GC Executive Committee apply the painful discipline? Let’s pray that our leaders will have the courage to apply the necessary discipline no matter the cost.”

We concur with Pr. Bohr. In San Antonio the church spoke. But these September 2015 actions of the Pacific Union are congregationalism writ large.
Is the Pacific Union its own independent church?
The current North American Division president, Dan Jackson, has not succeeded in bringing the Pacific or Columbia Unions into alignment with the world church. Leadership is needed in the top officers of the North American Division and in the Pacific Union and its executive committee that will operate in harmony with the world church.
Other Unions and units, including Columbia Union, Norwegian Union, Swedish Union, Netherlands Union, Northern California Conference, and Southeastern California Conference presently stand in opposition to the Working Policy of the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, some on questions of ordination, others at the question of homosexual practice. The Council of Adventist Pastors encourages church members to much prayer for the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church at this time. We encourage those called to leadership to engage in decided action at this 2015 Annual Council session to fully meet the crisis created by not only the Pacific Union’s voted action of overt rebellion, but the voted actions of these other bodies.
Leadership must meet this challenge at this time. Pastors and workers who have supported the General Conference vote are on the point of being marginalized and could face removal from employ. Members who have supported the General conference decision now face a choice between local rebellion or fidelity to the mission of the world church. The crisis is come. Nevertheless, the promise is “The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out—the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place” (Selected Messages, vol. 2, p. 380).

42 replies on “Pacific Union rebels against GC WO decision”

Please go back and read the question we voted on at San Antonio:
“Is it acceptable for division executive committees, as they may deem it appropriate in their territories, to make provision for the ordination of women to the gospel ministry? Yes or No.”
We were voting about Divisions, not Unions or Conferences. How can the Unions be out of harmony with the General Conference by choosing to ordain women when the General Conference has never made a gender qualification for ordination and decades of church-sponsored research on the theology have found no prohibition?

You are 100% incorrect. the GC Secretariat has even clarified this position as erroneous in a letter to NPUC before they took an equally apostate vote.
What is wrong with you people? No one is insisting you believe anything! But if you don’t agree with the doctrines and positions of the church, LEAVE. You have no right to destroy the church like this, all due to an ongoing temper tantrum about not getting your way. I saddened and frustrated beyond belief with all of you.

There is nothing wrong with our disagreement on this. We aren’t going to agree on everything, but we can disagree in a spirit of Christian love. I love what David Asscherick has said on his Facebook wall:
“You’ve never heard me say, nor will you, that if someone doesn’t share my position on this issue that they are evil or liberal or Jesuits or in apostasy etc. This is plainly a Romans 14 issue, so I wouldn’t worry too much about the fact that good people see it differently. Ty’s basic point, and mine, is that we shouldn’t be voting an absolute and universal mandate on a disputable and non-fundamental issue. Be at peace, brother! God is still on the universe’s throne.”
“I am very familiar with Stephen’s [Bohr] and Doug’s [Batchelor] position, as I used to hold the same position. They are fine men and capable evangelists. I regard them as brothers in Christ and fellow Seventh-day Adventists. We have much in common; for example, every one of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs. Peace!”

You are correct; there is nothing wrong with disagreement between you and I on this issue. However, this issue has been brought before the church to vote on 3 times, and the church has said no. Instead of respecting the decision of the General Conference in Session, a few rogue unions and conferences have decided to practice congregationalism, in clear defiance/disrespect for the guidelines and bylaws of the church that they elected to be a part of.
THAT is the problem.
People who don’t agree with the positions of the SDA Church should leave it. Period. You may be confounded in your rebellion and unable to see the harm you are doing to the cause of Christ, but this continued defiance is destroying the church. That is where the sin lies, not in you and I disagreeing on an issue.

msles70, you said, “People who don’t agree with the positions of the SDA Church should leave it. Period.”
The position of the SDA Church is women may be ordained as local elders and serve as full-time senior pastors. Do you agree?

My real concern is not all these rebellious sub entities. My concern is the General Conference Leadership which is not leading in any meaningful and clear way. If anyone is to be held responsible for this it is the the World Church Leadership because they are acting as if this is an intellectual, adminstrative and cultural matter when it is foundational to the faith. Do we have female husbands anywhere in the Bible?

Msles70, I think you are overstating your case here. The question voted at San Antonio was on a mandate for Divisions, not Unions or Conferences. The authority of the Unions were not voted on.
The GC Secretariat has been clear that their interpretation is that the Unions do not have the authority to decide criteria for ordination, in particular not whether women can be ordained as pastors. Some Unions hold to a different interpretation (as do Brent King). The discussion on how hierarchical the Adventist church is (and should be) is still on, and personally I find these tensions to be a healthy sign that we are still a Movement.

No, I’m not overstating anything. Divisions, unions and conferences do not have the authority to ordain anyone outside of the parameters set forth by GC. They clarified that in the letter sent in August.
I am tired of these distractions. People need to know God, and the church has definitively spoken on this on more than one occasion. I respect anyone’s freedom of conscience, but if you don’t agree, then you should move on and either join or create another church. To disrupt and destroy our denomination because of your OPINION is selfish, destructive and sinful.

msles70, thank you for your honest opinion. We have different views of how to deal with tensions and difference of understanding in the church, but I do not find this to give any reason to call my actions “selfish, destructive and sinful.”
My membership status is up myself and my local congregation. As it stands, both my local congregation, conference and union conference strongly believe that male and female pastors should have equal recognition and equal responsibilities. So why should ask for my membership to be resigned from a local congregation that holds the same faith as me?

Harald Solheim: Not healthy; not a good witness; not biblical; and not a movement.
Unions and other units are to operate within the structure of the world church.
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 1 Corinthians 1:10
Each doing what is correct in their own eyes? That was not Paul’s advice to the church.

“Each doing what is correct in their own eyes? That was not Paul’s advice to the church.”
Then again, Paul did give advice to the Romans that they should be allowed to follow their own convictions without being judged by others who disagreed with those convictions (read ch. 14). Why can’t we follow that advice on this issue, an issue in which there is CLEARLY no worldwide consensus?

The church will not hear the last of this mess until we understand that there is no comment on FEMALE PRIESTLY or MINISTRY attire discussion anywhere in scripture or the writings of Ellen G. White. That should be eloquent but “Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive?” Walter Scott. Deliver us Lord! Only confession and forsaking sin ever works. It is my hope that someone somewhere in leadership will learn that repentance and renunciation of sin and this is a sin applies to the the leaders as to “lesser” men, only that in scripture the leaders need the blood of a bull instead of a lesser animal.

“We were voting about Divisions, not Unions or Conferences.”
Brent, it’s actually a common mistake that overlooks the question and the clarifying phrase, “as they may deem it appropriate in their territories,” “in their territories” of course implying the obvious. From the NAD’s website:
“Administratively, the world-wide Church has 13 Divisions, which are composed of churches grouped by a collection of missions, fields, or states into unions of churches.”
You can find more here:

Brent, if what you say is true then why aren’t ALL the Unions/Conferences in USA, Europe and Australia (the majority, if not all, who support female ordination) to start ordaining women. Maybe they’re not as smart as you are.
Brent, I have a suggestion. i suggest you go on a crusade to inform all those ignorant unions and conferences and let them know that they can ordain women an not be in rebellion – good luck!!!

The post opens with a statement that is less than factual:
“the Pacific Union executive committee voted September 9 to ordain women to positions of pastoral leadership”.
This is a misrepresentation of the facts. On September 9 this year, the Pacific Union executive committee simply stated that they will abide by the decision made by the Pacific Union constituency meeting in 2012, as they are obliged to unless revoked by a new constituency meeting. No other aspects of the statement is controversial with regards to policy.
From press release of the 2012 Pacific Union Constituency Session :
“After intense discussion, delegates voted that the Pacific Union would approve ordinations, “without regard to gender,” when such approvals are requested by the conferences. In accordance with world policy, local conferences select candidates for ordination, and the local conferences ordain those who are approved by the unions.
The action applies only to the local conferences within the Pacific Union territory that choose to ordain women. Women who are ordained in a local conference within the Pacific Union will generally be recognized as “commissioned” in other conferences or unions.”

Actually, the opening sentence as a whole unit of thought, says “It was revealed today that the Pacific Union executive committee voted September 9, 2015 to ordain women to positions of pastoral leadership in spite of the July 9 decision of the 2015 General Conference session.” Taken as a whole unit of thought, the sentence adequately represents the insubordinate action of the Pacific Union which is described more fully and sustained by quotes from Pacific Union action. Meanwhile, your post contains inaccuracies.

admin, you state that “Meanwhile, your post contains inaccuracies.” Please describe what you find to be inaccurate.
My point was only that just like the GC Executive Committee and the Divisional Executive Committees is obliged to comply with the decisions made at the GC Session, a Union Executive Committee is obliged to follow the decisions made at the Union Constituency Meeting. According the Pacific Union press release from 2012, “delegates voted that the Pacific Union would approve ordinations, “without regard to gender,” when such approvals are requested by the conferences.” The Pacific Union Executive Committee cannot (and should not) disregard this vote, unless it is revoked by a new constituency meeting. Is this assessment inaccurate (regardless of whether any of us may approve or disapprove about what either session has voted)?
Or is the perceived inaccuracy that “no other aspects of the statement is controversial with regards to policy.”

“a Union Executive Committee is obliged to follow the decisions made at the Union Constituency Meeting.”
Harald, you seem to have forgotten that the PUC voted their ordination policy against their standing bylaws, which they failed to modify after constituents voted it down. Thus, the PUC executive committee is still “obliged to follow” the NAD and GC working policies.

rogeliogutierrez, the legal council to the Pacific Union Conference advised contrary to your interpretation according to the report from the mentioned constituency session:
“Before the special session the same legal counsel advised that while the Executive Committee did not have the authority to approve the ordination of women without changing the bylaws, the delegates to a constituency session did have the authority to vote to approve the ordination of women, with or without changing the bylaws. They explained that since the constituency delegates create and modify the bylaws, the constituency delegates may choose at times to act out of harmony with their own bylaws.”
Which means that the Pacific Union Executive Committee is bound to decision made by the constituency delegates even if the delegates acted “out of harmony with their own bylaws.”

The church manual states that the church does not discriminate in the area of race, color, or sex. And then goes on to state that it does so except in the area of ordination. You cannot have an exception if you say you don’t discriminate. The Church must first live up to the church manual and stop discriminating and become consistent. It’s just like saying we don’t discriminate against race except that we will not allow a black person or yellow person to become president of the General Conference. Besides a General Conference vote should not decide matters relating to social (gender) relationships anymore than it should vote on whether we should allow that blacks should be equal to whites in the church. There are so many differences regarding men and women relationships in the world and we should not let the majority to determine what the minority should do in this area. South American and African Adventists should not dictate to European, American, Chinese, and Australian Adventists whether they should ordain women anymore than these latter should dictate to the others if they were the majority,.

I am thankful for PUC decision. It is correct to follow the vote of the people. Our church was organized to be a bottom up organization, local members, local churches, conferences then Unions. Each level operates at the vote of the group it serves. This is the way God inspired Ellen and James White and our founding church leaders to set up the church. We as members are to study our Bibles and truth is to continue marching on. I’m thankful for the spirits leading on this issue. We know we are following Jesus when we love like he loves and when we accept the service of all that he calls.

Have you tried being a PUC delegate? It is a closed group where the powers that be pull like-minded people into delegateship. No vote was taken within the PUC churches to count the many churches/members within PUC territority who do not support the PUC decision. I do not think you are politically aware of the game going on. PUC is “taxation” without representation. I asked LLUC to present just one speaker against WO. Answer was NO from church and School of Religion. There are groups on the campus that did not support WO, so how was their voice treated for at least one speaker? Where was their representation in the debate? Sit down and shut up, we know best, and we have the power, is the feeling I got. I tried and tried until ignored.

“Which means that the Pacific Union Executive Committee is bound to decision made by the constituency delegates even if the delegates acted ‘out of harmony with their own bylaws.’”
This lawyerly logic would seem to lead to a second assumption concerning a similar case: the SECC executive committee, constituency delegates and Sandra Roberts are likewise bound to each other through some legality the GC considers an imaginary loophole, which then leads one to wonder if and when the administration office in Silver Spring, Maryland will turn to their own legal experts for back-into-harmony counsel.

Either our leaders are weak, confused or very patient, for I have neither seen nor heard of the “grave consequences” mentioned. I’m really tired of this in-your-face defiance. Women as elders is just as wrong, but we continue to have policy support for it; why? So many of my congregants feel confused, misled and have lost confidence in leadership. This atmosphere of distrust has led some to withhold tithe, form home churches, and harbour suspicion of some conference officials.
Let’s not worry about money and the possible fallout. Honour God. Seek His approval, not man’s.
Discipline needs to be applied! Bible-truth must be clarified and defended! It is time to draw the line!

From your lips to God’s ears. I too am tired of this open defiance and disrespect being unchallenged. It’s past time to move on it. I wish someone could explain why this hasn’t happened. I agree: Do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may.

Do not expect this to end soon. Satan is behind it. Num 16:1 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
Num 16:2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
Num 16:3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD? This is vintage Satan. “Women can do everything men do. Why do these men lift themselves above the congregation of the Lord seeing that all are priests in a priesthood of believers….Why does Jesus lift himself above all the angels seeing he is an angel too and all angels are holy……Why does God discriminate….?” Same spirit,same chaotic devil willing to cut the church in half because it is not his baby…..He has forfeited his inheritance and now he wants us to forfeit ours. 1Ki 3:26 Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it.
These people do not care what happens to the church or to souls or to the world. They care for nothing but their own way. The other day some one was discussing women’s ministries as opposed to the Dorcas movement and this realization clarified. Dorcas is a society of givers and is others FOCUSED. Women’s ministries is focused on the rights and needs of women in the church. It is focused on women. It is a self – centered movement by women for women. Big difference. So is WO. It is about POWER and AUTHORITY, equality. It is a political movement to stop “abuse of women” because denying women ordination is “abuse of women”. This is straight talk. “Progress” has been made and the world church appears like it is applying the brakes. You can blame PUC for rebelling. It is like an illicit relationship falling apart. They are often violent affairs. The church has been fornicating with the world for whatever reason and agreeing to go along with the feminist agenda; now they invoke scripture? What we learn here is very simple: NEVER PLAY THE GAME OF SMARTS: SATAN CAN PLAY IT BETTER. MY prayer is for God to save the leaders of this church; those among them who are sincere and love the truth. When I listen to them speak I just hear the same troubling tone of attempting to straddle the snake. My plea would be for them to take a clear position based on scripture and state clearly that those that have a problem with it can surrender their membership. In the mean time it is inaccurate to say PUC rebels. I think it is more accurate to say the leadership of the PUC rebels.May God save us from this hour.

Dwaine, your sentiments are the same for many, especially on the badly needed correction of women elders. It would clear unbiblical ordination issues. Elder Bohr stated the Annual Council owns the women elders policy. It is theirs to cure. As the tidal wave of rebellion swells, the saints pray, agonize and … wait. Will this Annual Council act? I pray it will. So much is riding on it.
Where are the men in high places whose charge is to act in an emergency? The saints are weary.
“The Lord would be greatly dishonored were His people to follow a course that would lead the people of the world to think that we were divided into two parties. To keep up an internal warfare would please the enemy and greatly retard the work that the Lord would have done in our world.” {Battle Creek Letters 115.5}

Some of the folks in this conversation seem not to have been listening very carefully during the debate in San Antonio over women’s ordination.
The question was directly asked from the floor whether the motion’s wording included the Unions within each Division as well as the Divisions themselves. Dr. G.T. Ng, Executive Secretary of the General Conference, made it very clear in response to this question that the Unions are not independent in any way from Divisions or the General Conference, and that the Unions are obligated to obey General Conference policy as voted by the world church in its global sessions.
The General Conference Working Policy (2013-2014 edition), p. 113, is very clear that the world church has an ordination policy for the gospel ministry which is gender-specific:
“The appointment of individuals to serve as Bible instructors or chaplains, or in departmental or pastoral responsibilities, shall not be limited by race or color. Neither shall these positions be limited by gender (except those requiring ordination to the gospel ministry”)
The General Conference Working Policy would not include such a statement if it were merely the responsibility of each Union to decide on qualifications for ordination.

“The appointment of individuals to serve as Bible instructors or chaplains, or in departmental or pastoral responsibilities, shall not be limited by race or color. Neither shall these positions be limited by gender (except those requiring ordination to the gospel ministry”)
I’m just the people understand that they are living in the time of Judgment? Or they might think that such a wordy chicanery will be taken by Heavens as a prove of their perfectness?
Truly He (God) taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
This policy is nothing but temporary document that cannot by any means be a replacement ofl several decisions made by GC on this topic.
Do you forget that? Why then do you refer to this document as if you have no clue of what value it has?
This policy never means to be absolute authority for the Church, it was not accepted by entire Church and cannot prove anything.
Actually by accepting this document the Annual Counsel dare to disregard the will of the Church and I would ashame to refer to it publicly.
And to tell the truth..history of accepting this policy is one of the most unpleasant pages in adventists history, to my opinion. It’s just..unclean.
And I think you know that maybe even better then me.

You have never understood what this is about. You tell falsehoods based on your literal interpretations – none if which hold up in light of evidence.
In regard to the vote, the vote was on a precise wording for Divisions regardless of any vocal clarification. Unions are not under the domain on divisions so the point is mute.
You are now in rebellion against God on this. Unions that are wisely tossing your precision ordination are doing so with enlightened views of inspiration that are based on the movement of God in the modern world. Your precious Bible is misogynistic so be careful how you use. it.

Why is there such discrimination within inclusion of the members and those voting for this? When does the wisdom of Love kick in or does this fall into those ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth? When do we call it for what it is?
Once again; we Love the members of the PUC and appreciate their works and efforts. We understand the hardships and situations you are placed in during this difficult economic situation; but are once again forced to note the disparities created by others wishing to use such to promote vain individual ideologies.
Maybe within like we should ask those voting for such in the PUC some questions from 2012 forward. Other than attached field interest; why does the PUC have the lowest tithe per capita in the NAD? Why are your operational and support requirements much higher than anyone else in the NAD? Why by member percentages are your baptism numbers so low and your missing rates so high? Are there not more important things to worry about; like HIS things?
I guess the conviction of majority of members and those voting of “no” means nothing? Should we not ask why these children are running up and down the isles of the Church, continuing to preach failed ideologies; and others wish to support them? Maybe we should begin with teaching simple subset theory; but are we not inhibited in teaching anything because of such artificial environments being created?

I wonder what a full session of the PUC will decide? I have often wondered about that! It seems to me that what we have here is the typical satanic strategy of placing his people in decisive and divisive positions and then ensuring that it is the official position while marginalizing the majority who object by ensuring they have no platform. It is not possible that people in Southern California are so illiterate as to be confused on this. The church has no course but to dismiss these leaders from the church and appoint others or count and cut its losses here but keep the name of the church pure. We must move urgently to rescind all our un-biblical positions. It may well serve us to call an urgent GC even if it costs us a lot of money to clean up this mess.

We cannot face a united world divided. We have nothing to tell them until we fear God ourselves. What we have here is a real crisis of credibility in the making. The world is in rebellion against God and when we join them in rebellion by spaciously defying scripture ourselves to accommodate their ideas and incremental cognitive derailment and insolence towards God, adding our voice to the dissonance that is becoming definitive of the world, we have nothing to tell them and what is hard to understand is why the leaders of this movement for some reason play politics with this and are more interested in quoting their own actions than God’s actions on these matters. Why is there no-one telling the plain fact that these actions repudiate the faith and thus disqualify all the participants as Adventist ministers. We put up silly arguments about Unions and Conferences and Divisions this and GC that as if all this cutlery changes the meal. The issue is we have told the world that we are obedient to scripture. That is the meal. We cannot change that message.
Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. This is Samson’s hair coming off on the lap of Delilah and there are men lying in wait to not only take the hair but the eyes! If we play with ordaining female elders, we must now ordain female “pastors” and end up “ordaining” lesbians and gays because they are “subjects of salvation too” and we must not “discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation” and who are we “to judge” ad nauseum. There is more to this than we are dealing with. It is not just the Delilah of female ministers. There are MEN behind the WOMAN.
Jdg 16:9 Now there were men lying in wait, abiding with her in the chamber. And she said unto him, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he brake the withs, as a thread of tow is broken when it toucheth the fire. So his strength was not known.
Samson will not always escape Delilah just like Israel did not always escape Balaam. If Satan is behind this; he will come again and again and again and must be resisted again and again and again. The price of spiritual integrity is vigilance.
So, for David to say this is not a matter of salvation is either ignorant or disingenuous. A church that has lost its savor is good for nothing Jesus said and He never said a lie and never will. Our savor is the Bible. When we are true to it, we have integrity and authority to speak to the world on God’s behalf. When we are not, we have neither integrity nor authority. We are good for nothing. THIS IS THE MOST INGENIOUS ATTACK ON THE INTEGRITY OF THIS MOVEMENT AND ONLY SATAN COULD BE ITS MASTERMIND. MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT CHARITY.
The question is not whether Divisions have authority over Unions. The question is whether the Bible has authority over the Seventh Day Adventist church.

I have been reading the above comments and have come to the conclusion that there is what I call a lot of “nit picking” as to what they said etc.
At the end of the day are we following scripture even if it makes appear to be different or societies values.
If we follow the latter we are doomed as a religion because we then become irrelevant and anything is ok.
We have been called to preach the gospel commission – how much time/energy has been wasted on this topic when we could have been out evangelising and following a straight, “Thus saith the Lord”. Isn’t that how Jesus rebuked the devil when being tempted – “It is written”.
As the bible itself warns, no human has any authority to change scripture.
Let us study our bibles for ourselves and ask the Holy Spirit to guide and interpret for us, we have a work to do that needs to be done now!

This is no new thing. Balaam is back from the dead. The Pacific Union is being true to their agenda and they are succeeding to sow discord and confusion and weakness just like Balaam. Num 22:6 Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for they are too mighty for me: peradventure I shall prevail, that we may smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for I wot that he whom thou blessest is blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed. Num 22:11 Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out. The people who are pushing this agenda will not let up or give up until Israel is defeated. They hate Israel. And so there will be re- positioning just like Balaam and Balaak did in Israel of old. There will be a change of tactics. It will be “Moabite women” again. There will be stumbling blocks, actions calculated to trip the church and cause it to have no alternative but a destruction of unity and focus and clarity and as in 1888, the enemy will attempt to use the leadership. Let us pray for these men because it is not a light matter to find one’s tiny little existence pitted against the Creator of heaven and earth. Balaam died for what he did and so will all the wicked but not before they take some “men of Israel” with them. “Big names” mean nothing and all the smooth talk will not change God’s clear positions which are very clear always to those who want to do His will. We are no longer to look to man for what is right. We are to look to the word and to the Spirit of Truth. Those who have received the love of the truth will neither be surprised nor confused by these actions. I am not surprised that Ty and David think as they do. They are human. Peter was human and wrong on the question of the cross and the Lord rebuked him but saved him still. So, do not be surprised that people you may have regarded as luminaries may be used of the enemy. That mind which prevailed over unfallen angels and unfallen man is no trifle. Ellen White said we should not be that people will be deceived. However men may be used of God, they remain men and the Apostle Paul warns 1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Having said that, this issue is central to the survival of Adventism. This is the only organization that has taken a position before the whole world to say they have no God but the God of the Bible and that His word alone is their rule of faith and that His Law is eternal. How do we explain ourselves to the world when OUR LEADERS at ANNUAL COUNCILS make decisions on behalf of the church which they are AFRAID TO BRING TO THE FLOOR AT A GENERAL CONFERENCE SESSION. AND we now find ourselves with a CHURCH MANUAL that has non-scriptural positions which are given the force of LAW which will not survive a general conference vote. So, by hook as well as crook proponents of this extraneous agenda have gotten their error into our books. What shall the world church do? We have to then decide to stay in the church and stand with scripture at local church level and wait for our own sessions to set BIBLE TRUTH in its place of power. Since the battle has been brought to us we have to fight where we are until we are in a position to take the battle to the enemy. We have no other choice. We have to respectfully and in an orderly manner use the systems we have: the church business meeting and the conference and union sessions and while we will not win everyone to the truth, we must make God’s position clear and take a clear position ourselves. Even with the world, we will not win everyone to the truth but we must preach it! As long as women cannot be husbands, they cannot be Elders and Pastors and Presidents etc. Anyone who is confused on something as basic as this wants to be confused and confusing. What we ask is they do not confuse the church. By the way, the goal is not ordaining women and ending “discrimination”. The goal is to confuse and divide the church. What the church needs to do is to declare the leadership of the Pacific Union in defiance and this dismissed and defrocked from the ministry of the Seventh Day Adventist Church and then all who side with them are free to leave the church and join their leaders in the formation of a new organization. It may clarify things and create space for us to get the real Adventists in. We can never lose Adventists we never had. This is NOT a time for vacillation. There are many a sincere soul who are waiting to come in as soon as these agents of confusion make way. Let us make it easy for them by allowing them to do whatever they so wish, WITHOUT OUR NAME. Of course they will not accept that because THE NAME is what they want to discredit!

Courage to deal with crisis is what is needed but that comes from clarity of conviction. Without clarity and conviction there can be no resolution. May God hold our hand as a people! How we need Him to step in and help us deal with this. Yes brethren the PUC leadership are bound by the positions of the world church but this is defiance. So?

“There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and he will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.”

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