[The Following document was released to the church via the North American Division on July 10, 2015.]
General Conference President Elder Ted Wilson has requested that each division president of the 13 world regions, clarify the meaning of the vote taken on Wednesday, July 8, 2015.
North American Division (NAD) President Daniel Jackson would like to make the following statement:
Firstly, we want to acknowledge that we will comply with the vote of the world church.
Secondly, the vote prohibited the 13 world divisions of the church or any of their entities from making their own decisions regarding the consideration and potential implementation of women’s ordination to the gospel ministry.
Thirdly, it is important that we identify what the motion did not do:
It did not disallow women from serving as commissioned church pastors.
It did not disallow women to serve as ordained elders in the local church
It did not disallow the ordination of deaconesses.
Since the motion did not disallow these things, we therefore continue to encourage those who have been serving in these capacities to continue to do so.
It is vital to understand that the NAD will continue to follow the directions found in the General Conference Working Policy allowing conferences and unions to license women as Commissioned Ministers in Pastoral Ministry.
We will also continue to encourage utilizing the services of women as ordained local elders and deaconesses.
The following is a series of policies which are drawn from the Working Policy and that inform our direction:
Church Manual Policy BA 60 05 on Human Relations which states:
“The Church rejects any system or philosophy which discriminates against anyone on the basis of race, color, or gender. The Church bases its position on principles clearly enunciated in the Bible, the writings of Ellen G White, and the official pronouncements of the General Conference.”
Church Manual Policy BA 60 10 which states:
“The world Church supports nondiscrimination in employment practices and policies and upholds the principle that both men and women, without regard to race and color, shall be given full and equal opportunity within the Church to develop the knowledge and skills needed for the building up of the Church. Positions of service and responsibility (except those requiring ordination to the gospel ministry*) on all levels of church activity shall be open to all on the basis of the individual’s qualifications.”
*The exception clause, and any other statement above, shall not be used to reinterpret the action already taken by the world Church authorizing the ordination of women as local church elders in divisions where the division executive committees have given their approval.
The 1989 General Conference Annual Council vote which allowed for:
“Those who have, without regard to gender, been recognized as commissioned ministers or licensed ministers may perform essentially the ministerial functions of an ordained minister of the gospel in the churches to which they are assigned, subject to division authorization of this provision, if the following conditions apply:
“1) The individual has completed approved ministerial training.
“2) The individual has been called by a conference to serve in a full-time pastoral-evangelistic-ministerial role.
“3) The individual has been elected and ordained as a local church elder.”
North American Division Working Policy L 33 10 which states:
“A commissioned minister in leadership position is authorized by the conference, union or division to perform substantially all the functions of the ordained minister within the territory of the organization he/she serves. The functions that are excluded are those listed in the Church Manual as follows: Organizing of a Church, Uniting churches, and Ordaining local elders or deacons.”
It is important to keep in mind that God calls all of his children to serve Him in ministry. He calls both men and women to serve His church and the NAD will continue to support the filling of these positions regardless of gender. The NAD will also continue to utilize all of its efforts to recognize the call of those who feel moved by the Holy Spirit into pastoral ministry.
–Prepared by the Communication Department of the North American Division
[NOTE: The same statement has been issued a second time, lacking the phrase “of the church or any of their entities” at the “secondly” paragraph. We do not regard the omission to be significant. The initial draft no doubt reflects the expressed will of the General Conference and is more clarifying than the revision. The clear intent of the bylaws and of the July 8 voted action matches the initial language. -Ed.]
70 replies on “Clarification on the Roles of Women in Ministry”
I can only pray that the GC will get rid of ‘Commissioned’ female ministers (& licensed female ministers ??) and ordination of female Elders at their next annual (of fall ?) meeting – not the next 2020 GC session. I now know that females can be ordained as Elders only because of a GC meeting – this was never approved of by the World Church. Anything that has NOT been approved by the World Church should be rescinded. I don’t understand why the GC president didn’t deal with these issues at this session!! We can’t wait another 5 years for the World Church to vote on these issues. If commissioned female pastors can pretty much perform the same functions as an ordained male minister – then what good did the NO vote actually do????
On point Doris. This whole thing is a game of musical chairs. What those who are intent on removing Samson’s hair have done is implement Fabian gradualism on us, incrementally erode our scriptural integrity by first occupying positions of influence, frustrating integrity there, introducing liberalism as the new normal and control the process to ensure that the right delegates and the right people direct church process. We are now way down the road. Having succeeded in controlling the formulation and wording of church policy and ensuring it is so loaded with officious verbiage that none can read it with the exhausting eye to detail it demands, they can now silence the church (membership) with clauses and phrases that were never truly debated by the whole church. We never agreed that women should be ORDAINED to ANY position of authority in this church and even if our “fathers” did, it does not make it right. We simply have neither biblical precedent nor authority to do it. This is God’s church. His silence is eloquence. We cannot rationalize and institutionalize into praxis what God has neither explicitly commanded nor exemplified and we should deal with this as we have dealt with all other doctrinal or traditional error – reject it.
Excellent statment of the process used to get their way any way they can. See the NAD President’s Commission On Women In Ministry on this site and you will see the NAD stratigcal plan to overthrow the GC vote against women’s ordination promised by the NAD president Alfred McClure
For years now we have been running on policy instead of principle Doris and those who control the script control the direction of the church. This power they will not relinquish unless it is taken away from them by local congregations judiciously reading the policy script and ensuring it represents them as a body. WE, the people have been delinquent and have bred an arrogant, pompous and presumptuous ecclesiastical monster that now not only presumes and preys upon us but has little regard for God and his word. This does not mean we do not have God fearing ministers. We do, but they will not expel this new invasion of spiritual erosion without our determined and sustained support at the local level. Local churches need to have their own meetings and decide how they are going to proceed in compliance with the decision of the world church and in harmony with scripture. The local conference session and the local church must also do their part and not throw all the weight of this on Elder Wilson. Even he cannot do much if we are dubious at the grassroots.
Exactly. We need to deal with the core presumptious theology that women can be elders/pastors even if unordained.
I think the motive may have been to make for peacenturies at this time, that this one decision against women’s ordination was enough to bear at the this time and hand it included a vote to eliminate the commissioned women “pastrors” and all female “elders” it might have gone the other way, which would have been desaterous.
Doris, I would like to see rapid movement on these things as well. But Elder Wilson is doing very well. It is clear now that the ordination of women to gospel ministry has come to a conclusion in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I would anticipate future developments in dealing with commissioning and women elders as the timing is right. In spite of naysayers on every side, the church is beginning to experience the blessings of clarification already.
God has given our leaders wisdom and we need to learn to trust His guidance more. Let’s continue to live and give Jesus’ Third Angel’s Message to those Heaven sets in our pathway.
Perfectly stated, Elder Kirkpatrick.
I beg to differ Larry. The spores of this fungus remain ensconced in powerful positions and in our Policy Book. This is not the last we are hearing of this matter. Not if Satan is behind it. The vote is not as secure as it looks. If anything those pushing this matter have been working on many fronts and the desire is the same: to redefine, redirect and change Adventism into an appendage in their worldly agenda. God we can trust and we do and we are grateful for this outcome. It could have been worse. How much time we have to go on commissioning and ordaining elders before it is corrected we do not know, but what a travesty that we even have to be bogged down in such self seeking and self serving nonsense when the world is going to pieces and up in flames all around us. Each church and conference will have to apply this decision for themselves but the fact is it has nothing to do with what God has given us to tell the world. We need to be about that never mind the power brokers and politicians among us.
I fear we have not see the end of this matter. The South Pacific Division has just released it’s statement (see record.org.au) and they are promising to pursue the matter of women’s ordination further with the hope of getting WO onto the agenda for another vote at GC 2020, and this time achieving a ‘yes’ majority vote. Such a waste of time and effort, if only the SPD would put in as much time into evangelism.
Doris re your last sentence, What should have been voted on was should Women serve as pastors or elders. The type of title games played by the NAD and other entities mostly confuses people. You are correct in that the vote taken has very little practical restriction and is almost meaning less in reality but there will still be insubordination as it was voted due to rebellious attitudes I have seen from many delegates that gave speeches before votes were taken.
Dear Ordination Truth,
Things will work out because of the two major votes 1. Ted Wilson 2. WO Vote of NO
We need to be good soldiers in this battle and we must keep our eyes on Jesus.
Thank you again Ordination Truth pastors for helping us all to understand the issues. We are the people of the Book and we can thank the Lord. Maybe we are seeing “What Could Have Been – Can Be at this 2015 GC Session PTL
I want to be a good soldier – soldier being the key word. Stand up, stand up for Jesus. He is the Word and the SDA church keeps allowing NAD and various unions to stomp all over His Word. The NAD has already pronounced that they will still be commissioning female pastors, and these females can perform most of the functions of a MALE leader. This is just plain WRONG. Do we follow the Bible or don’t we? There is absolutely NO mission if we are no longer the movement of Sola Scriptura.
The “No” to women’s ordination decisions have all happened at the top level. Women elders and commissioning has not. It will be addressed. Few have any idea how big a ship this is. It does not turn on a dime. God is leading. An extraordinary course correction has been made. Let us hold our local leader’s feet to the fire and proceed in faith and trust in God. Let us support the faithful leaders. We have just lived through a moment of divine intervention.
I will ask God to give me a thankful and praising Spirit. I guess I just don’t understand how the ship was allowed by top leaders to get so far off course. Thank you for your kind words of reply.
It is not the leadership that allowed the ship to go off course. IT IS THE CHURCH MEMBERSHIP that allowed the LEADERSHIP to take the ship off course. It is always the passenger’s responsibility to not only board the right ship but to ensure the captain takes you where you intended to go in the first place!
You are so right!
Yes we are grateful to ordination truth. May you continue to bring to our attention whatever dangers may lurk for the church. I just want to say that the church as a whole needs to understand the frailty of the flesh. We cannot and must not trust either ourselves or our leaders to sustain without Divine power. We cannot trust man but we can be secure in trusting God. This does not mean we cast aspersions at leadership but it does mean when it comes to the word of God and our duty, the only safe authority is the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy and by that I not only mean Ellen G. White but all those that God spoke through in the Bible. The same Spirit that has spoken throughout this wilderness from Genesis to Revelation ALONE can be trusted to lead the church. Loyalty is not owed to leadership but to God. Honor and respect is due to all who serve God but judgment is to be surrendered only to God. In matters of conscience to God alone we owe submission. We will support leaders only as they are true to Him.
Perhaps some here do not realize that Dan Jackson has now changed his position publicly, removing from his affirmation of support for the church the phrase “or any of its entities.”
This effectively gives the Unions an excuse to rebel, whether Jackson wishes it so or not.
Surely the initial version is the way it was sorted out by the presidents. The wobbling on that phrase is exactly where the fur is flying. The NAD president is waffling back and forth, not the GC president. I anticipate a third revision by the NAD president soon. He’s trapped in the nest he has made and now he’s being forced to sit in it.
Amen. I would also add that GC leaders have likely anticipated, and would thus be well-prepared, for any political posturing and face-saving statements expressed by NAD leaders for the benefit of certain disheartened pro-ordination factions, particularly as the pressure mounts on Elder Jackson from certain risk-taking Unions still expecting his ongoing support. We should keep Brother Dan, as well as GC leadership, in prayer. Happy Sabbath.
We do not need a third revision of the statement by the North American Division. What North America needs is a new leadership as soon as they can.
Pray for Dan Jackson.
Dear Doris, I think like you in all what you are saying about this. And I don´t think that Elder Wilson has done all “very well”. He was against his own biblical conviction ready to perform a “Yes-Vote” too. This manner is like Aarons handling by the golden calf. And his long delay by the rebellious unions. – He didn´t work according to the plain statements of the working policy and the church manual. Now Elder Wilson has a new chance to handle it right. We will see soon whether he and the leaders will do God´s will and discipline the Netherland Union and will go the biblical way, that the Executivecommittee will forbid that woman can be ordained as elders or can perform as commissioned ones the duties of an ordained Minister. And we can see, that D. Jackson handles the No-Vote like the pharisees of old – he has not taken the right meaning of the vote but in his rebellious mind only the letter. The transgression of the word of God ist still going on and we and CAP have to fight as true soldiers of the cross further on.
It is a painful day when we have to face the reality that we cannot get a clear position from ANY of our leaders. How did we come to the point where we have no clear voice at the top and this comes a long way? Well, may be we need to say it. God has not raised the Seventh Day Adventist Church to be a unclear voice in the world. Never. Someone needs to reconnect with God or expect a day soon when God will take matters into His own Hands. We cannot go on in this equivocal pusillanimous turbulent duality and no fixed aboard manner forever. The times demand clarity and strength. God will see to it that the world understands Him perfectly. He may need to raise a new crew to do it but He will make sure the world is UNMISTAKEN on all His positions. If we fail and it looks like that is where we are headed, we have the assurance that the cause will not. God will see to that. Those who think that corrupting Adventism is a success have another think coming. God has not waited this long to capitulate!
Now it is the duty of Elder Wilson immediately and openly to correct D. Jackson´s wrong clarifacation and interpretation of the No-vote. It couldn´t be the Intension of the delegates to vote against Ordination only as pastores, if the bible declares plainly that an ELDER must be a man – this is the strongest argument of the bible against the Ordination of women as minister. Elder Wilson must stop this wrong doing, unitl he has shortly called a GC-Executivemeeting, it will decide it. Is it not blasphemy against God, so interprete the vote, where God has spoken? Elder Wilson has to answer of this, or we must think that thinks like D. Jackson.
Yes. They are trying to use their man-made poliicy of ordination to superceed the simple to undersatnd requiremtns of 1 Timonlty 3.
Elder Wilson must put down this rebellion now. Forget about the entrapment of mixing this issue with Ordination. The ordination of women is a moot point since it is not possible for them to meet the Biblical requiements of being the husband of one wife. Simple as that.
Sir, I am alarmed by the fact that the GC Annual Council allowed this women elder policy to pass. It is clear that the leadership is weak – even back then. On the other hand, the process could have been a farce in which the motion was passed under questionable circumstances – those objecting could have had the proverbial “not a point of order” invoked to silence them. The shoddy way some of the Church business was carried out in San Antonio reflects this. Parliamentary savvy and dogmatic legalistic processes go to an overkill yet the teachings of the bible which clearly instruct the Church on who is to be elected to the office of Church Elder, Bishop or Overseer is treated in a flippant manner without even batting an eyelid or at least following a careful process in how we should deal with all policies and doctrine. Everything must be tested and be subject to the Word of God: period.
Well said Trevor but we forget a very important point. Satan has never had simple truth spoken simply and respected simply as his MO. He is verbose, “sophisticated”, suave, technical, tactical, “procedural”, duplicitous, presumptuous, intimidating, arrogant, oppressive, manipulative, sneaky, “snakey”, everything else but simply honest. It should not surprise you that this is how he functions as he seeks to steamroll us into transgression and apostasy. It is nothing new. The aim is to shave our hair, tie our hands, take out our eyes, make us an engine for the purveying of error in the world and mock God. For true children of God in this movement there never was a more clear summons to duty as to oppose this invasion of the erosion of the the authority of scripture and of the God we serve and the battle lines are right where we are, at the local church level and the local conference session. We maybe should be calling for sessions where we are and taking clear positions to state our loyalty to scripture, the spirit of prophecy, the three angels messages, to the Law of God and His authority over this movement. We need to revisit OUR MESSAGE to the world before we can TALK TO THE WORLD. Is it the world and its AGENDA or the WORD of GOD and HIS AGENDA?
You hit the nail on the head. I wholeheartedly agree and I couldn’t have said it better.
I wholeheartedly agree with Sr. Doris and Br. Erich Schultze (and others here) that the ‘policy’ allowing the election and ordination of women elders post TOSC has to go, as this is a matter of theology and ‘not’ mere policy. The election and ordination of women elders came in via the back door after being passed of as a policy; but now it is clear, and more people around the world know, that this is in conflict with the Holy Bible.
The NAD leader is playing a political game in now falling back on the policies allowing for eldership and commissioned pastors. It is clear that they read the Bible differently and that this issue is not in the least bit over. The motion to vote on whether the Divisions be allowed the flexibility to decide on WO is a weak superficial motion which dealt with only the policy part but not the doctrinal position on the matter of the unbiblical policy of women being elected as elders.
It is clear that policies have taken precedence over sound biblical doctrines. In other words the doctrines of men (policies) have superseded the Bible teachings of the Word of God – and that is a much more important matter to address than addressing who decides on policies.
The fact that there is not a single women elder, bishop or overseer that was elected or ordained throughout the Bible – and in early days of our Church by our Pioneers, shows that WO is a foreign practice and one that is without a biblical basis. The theology and doctrinal position of electing and ordaining women elders is m-u-c-h more important than the vote on policy.
The NAD leader’s astuteness in using the policies in the system to further the aims of culture club Adventism actually shows open and utter disrespect to the world church body who they know very well does not approve of the electing and ordaining of elders or pastors for that matter. The GC must act. No more sleeping and playing games with God’s word and pampering the cry babies wanting to have their own way. The GC must not compromise: they must deal with insubordination or call the world church in to deal with the matter by vote. The parliamentary rules and proceedings are so overly rigidly complied with; yet the Word of God is allowed to be abused and trifled with by church leaders, church theologians and administrators. Where’s the Point of Order for this?
The fact that the election and ordination of elders and the election and ordination pastors has been allowed, shows our leaders aren’t good watchmen and have failed the church. The election and ordination of elders should never have been allowed in the first place. Now the NAD leader is using the erroneous policies to further assault the GC and the world church. Church leaders who aren’t willing, can’t or won’t stand up for truth should be removed and those who are much more faithful should be brought in as and when necessary. There can be no unity without the eldership issue being first corrected.
Thank you Trev. We do need another meeting of leaders and a special session to resolve these urgent administrative duplicitous positions. We just need it. If it means we have to live with rebellion in praxis, so be it but we need to ensure the POSITION from which people rebel is not itself rebellious towards God. Let the rebellion be personal not institutional. Ordination or its names’ sake “Commissioning” both need to be addressed in such clear terms theologically and as a matter of principle that those who are loyal to God are not confused with those who are not.
What I am saying is we have a duty to ensure clarity even though we may not be able to ensure universal compliance!
They did not want to take the motion to approve of women elders to the floor of the GC because it would have been voted down, just like women’s ordination was. We should put this vote 9n the agenda of the GC Executive Committee, and the to the World Church General Conference Session of 2020.
It is clear that policies have taken precedence over sound biblical doctrines. In other words the doctrines of men (policies) have superseded the Bible teachings of the Word of God – and that is a much more important matter to address than addressing who decides on policies.
The fact that there is not a single women elder, bishop or overseer that was elected or ordained throughout the Bible – and in early days of our Church by our Pioneers, shows that WO is a foreign practice and one that is without a biblical basis. The theology and doctrinal position of electing and ordaining women elders is m-u-c-h more important than the vote on policy.
The NAD leader’s astuteness in using the policies in the system to further the aims of culture club Adventism actually shows open and utter disrespect to the world church body who they know very well does not approve of the electing and ordaining of elders or pastors for that matter. The GC must act. No more sleeping and playing games with God’s word and pampering the cry babies wanting to have their own way. The GC must not compromise: they must deal with insubordination or call the world church in to deal with the matter by vote. The parliamentary rules and proceedings are so overly rigidly complied with; yet the Word of God is allowed to be abused and trifled with by church leaders, church theologians and administrators. Where’s the Point of Order for this?
The fact that the election and ordination of elders and the election and ordination pastors has been allowed, shows our leaders aren’t good watchmen and have failed the church. The election and ordination of elders should never have been allowed in the first place. Now the NAD leader is using the erroneous policies to further assault the GC and the world church. Church leaders who aren’t willing, can’t or won’t stand up for truth should be removed and those who are much more faithful should be brought in as and when necessary. There can be no unity without the eldership issue being first corrected.
The Report of the day 9 reveals, that Elder Wilson himself stated, that the Vote on Wednesday would not regard the other ordinations. Accordingly the women can be ordained as Elders or commissioned as ministers to perform the work of an ordained minister further on.- This was obviously the clarifacation that T. Wilson want, that D. Jackson should announce (for the angry members?). I think, this is wordly policy and practice to make unity with compromises. The NAD is half-way satisfied, but what is God´s thinking and the thinking of many delegates? The delegates must make appeals and CAP too, that this mischief stops. Whom will Ted Wilson honor: God or the rebellious NAD and others? When this is the start where will it end?
Erich,
Perhaps the best way we can today serve the Seventh-day Adventist Church is to encourage our Adventist brothers and sisters by getting more involved in our own local church, voting for godly leaders, and most of all, reflecting the spirit of Christ first in the home and then among those in the local church with whom we might disagree. No doubt we’re all thankful the World Church has been utterly, miraculously blessed this past week in San Antonio on a number of fronts. Amen. So let’s continue to exert our individual influence locally, above all, so we can truly help support Elder Wilson in slowly but surely turning the Lord’s mighty ship toward Zion.
Dear Br. Rogelio Gutierrez
I wholehearted agree sir that those holding true to our biblical positions of faith should be vigilant and take action at grassroots level in the local churches. One big problem that I foresee are pastors and leaders who either indifferent, afraid, against or misinformed, who will stifle us moving forward. I do know that proponents have been disingenuous in how they have operated and propagated their cause. They misrepresent EGW, the Bible and have grossly misinformed membership that there is now some theology supporting their position when the whole thing clearly is based on culture not Christ. I have however started my campaign informally here in my little corner where I live – albeit just a little light.
I wholeheartedly agree…
Why go to those women “elders ” and “pastors” and appeal to them to follow the Bible, and if these women are willing to do that, then the whole matter will be resolved, and the voted against such an unbiblical practice will pass easily having the women themselves stop the campaign for women elders and pastors, by their abandoning the movement it will run out of momentum and dry up.
There is very little many of us can do at the local level. If the Pastor is pro he has great influence on the Board especially in these days when Pastors stay on in one place for a decade. They have, at least in some cases, made certain the Board is “properly” constituted and objectors to the Pastor’s agenda are a thorn in the flesh.
That is quite true. Pastors if unchecked can manipulate the election processes and the praxis of the church but we have social media and other means to communicate the will of God and be as loving about it as we can be. The point is this is a war. It has always been so we fight and speed is the key. Address matters promptly and powerfully and extensively from where ever we can and leave outcomes to God. Do not expect the enemy of truth to give you advantages: create them.
We need to quit complaining about being outmaneuvered.This is a game of smarts versus divinity. God simply is ahead because of His Divinity and we need to be people of prayer to receive revelation from Him in order to survive and overcome the high stakes and high intellect game this is. We must not expect any favors decency or fairness from those that are at war with truth./ Everything depends on deception for them and WE must insist on the truth alone and press hard to ensure it is heard in all fora in the world and in the church. While we are busy congratulating and talking ourselves to sleep and silencing reality, the enemy is busy seeking to control and create the reality in which we have no control. We are not even adjusting to the reality he is creating. We are even out of touch with that. You see it in GC programs that are farmed out to the world church and the officers we appoint to some of our key positions. There is no way we are winning this without much prayer, getting rid of personal sin and weaknesses by the Spirit of God and being humble enough to accept that our current trajectory of academic idolatry is not helping our case any. We need to be a spiritually enlightened people first and men of letters second. If we were we would not be entangled in these ridiculous dissonances and contradictions. This is a clear case of leaning to our own academically inflated understanding and letting go of the hand of simple discipleship to God. The idolatry of higher learning needs to make way for the reality of the power of a simple and total faith in and reliance on and submission to God.
I share much of the feelings and views expressed here and will join in praying for the necessary changes to take place, bringing us back to the bible. May God grant our president wisdom and each of us patience.
Dear Sr. Doris. I enjoy reading your comments and agree with your views on this issue. I’ve replied with a link regarding the guidelines that are ‘suggested’ for electing elders, although the practice itself as we know is unbiblical and yet the Annual Councils in both 1975 and 1984 erred in this regard and voted it in – go figure why? I also commented on your tithes query. My comments are awaiting moderation because of the link I assume.
I also wish to show my support in your having to go through such a tough experience with many others in the NAD who have to put up with this ‘apostasy’ which is what I would call it – and rightfully so I would say. But as you know when Elijah thought he was the only prophet remaining faithful to God he didn’t know at the time that there were 7000 others who hadn’t bowed down to Baal. The fact the CAP exists – and numerous other ministries in North America – gives hope to us all.
It’s not looking too good over here in South Africa as our Union Conference (the SAUC) has come under the influence of incitement by culture club Unions in America and have issued a formal statement that diametrically opposes our Division’s (SID) position which as you know does not support the election and ordination of both elders and pastors. So far [no] pastors in our Union or Local Conference that I am aware of has openly come out opposing our Unions reckless behaviour. Perhaps our pastors too aren’t aware of the statement being issued as are the members in the pews due to the document being kept under wraps. In other words it was done in stealth without the knowledge of those in the pews. Guess we all are soldiers wherever we are and have to stand up and fight. Not one pastor has stood up here in openly opposing WO! One did confide in me though that he wasn’t in support. We need pastors and theologians or bible scholars that can stand up for truth and be counted as true leaders. This is another area where we have failed as a church: any Tom, Dick or Harry gets elected as pastor and rushed into ordination without properly proving themselves worthy of ordination. They don’t stand up for truth (except for tithes and offerings of course), which has become the most important doctrine in the bible to many yet when WO was introduced in ’75 where were all these pastors to stand up against this. Even the GC leaders have failed the Church. And that is a fact. Where is my evidence in support of what I’m saying? The GC leaders allowed the election and ordination of women elders into the Church – and the chickens have come home to roost. In all those areas where WO is prevalent, the Church there is waning and apostasy is reigning.
Thank you for your kind words. I may make comments. but uour comments are like learning form a college professor. I seem only to be able to whine & cry without having any god-given insight as to what can be done for these years that leavening has been taking place. I’m a perfect example why women should not have leadership roles – way too emotional. I just start crying a flood of tears for the church (Christ’s bride who we all have abused) and for the never ending rejection of Christ (as Him being the Word). Literal Israel broke His heart and now His Spiritual Israel is doing the same with so many idols, lust (coveting roles that weren’t prescribed to us as Eve did), and pride – always pride, which is nothing but SELF. We are supposed to die to self and live for Jesus, but we continue to live for self and kill Jesus over & over again just like the Papal church does with their mass. There is an article on this site entitled, Because of the Angels. I’ve read it several times now and it really blows me away every time. It really pulls everything together into a beautiful masterpiece of harmonic music. God is Love, but love is math really, so God is math. Everything in His cosmos is math. I believe music is completely math as well. Music is the vehiicle that brings math alive – not just hearing but making it visible. God’s divine government is love, math, and music. It is a complex and geometric tapestry. God created man/women with roles mirroring the roles of God and Christ. The man’s role represents God and woman represents Christ role of being submissive, as Christ is to God. God & Christ are one, just as man & women become one flesh, but each have separate, distinctive roles. Sr White explains how God calls a meeting of all the angels & explains how He & Michael (Cheist) are one in the same, but that Michael only performs His will. The angels never really understood this concept (even with their big brains). This is what tripped up Lucifer. He could understand an omnipotent God, but didn’t understand how Michael cold have private council with God & he couldn’t. Isn’t this just what many in the Church are now doing? Many of us don’t understand how interested the angels are in seeing how the divine roles set up for our families and church on this planet play out – how perfect & lovely they are when we fulfill them as prescribed versus how hideous they are when perverted. The author of this remarkable article about angels even explains the since Eve is a women, she represents the Church, and since the church represents Christ, she is directly under Christ. I don’t do justice to the author, but not only is male headship Biblical – since we were created in the Image of God – it helps the angels understand WHY role distinction is so important. It may take eternity for us to grasp all the lovely & deep layers of WHY God set up His government (culture) as He did.
Dear Sr. Doris, I really like reading your comments and support the sentiments you express. I have also shed a some tears of my own in my personal devotions and prayers concerning how things have played out; but in spite of all this we can praise God that is was a no in San Antonio. I’m no college professor ma’am but I thought it’s pretty cool that you would say that.
Blessings.
T
Though the clarification made by NAD President Dan Jackson makes the vote on WO feel strangely like a “pyrrhic victory”, I choose to believe that God’s principle of Romans 8:28 will prevail! I choose to claim God’s promises and prophecies about how He will protect His church and use it to complete His mission in this world.
I so very much like your lovely, calm and kind Christian spirit. Thank you, because you are the medicine I need right now. I need so much more faith. This issue has really made the Laodician Church wake up, that is for sure. As we all know, God allows just what he knows we need. I need to put my worry, fear, anger and discouragement on an alter to God.
Concerning President Daniel Jackson’s “Thirdly, it is important…” statement:
1] Notice how the issue of deaconesses is conflated here. We all know that deaconesses aren’t the gender equivalent of the office of Deacon but as described by Ellen White in her support for ordination of women by the laying on of hands to a specific line of work in the church, we have termed this office deaconess. But this is a separate issue.
2] The NAD now falls back on existing policies to continue an unbiblical practice and all because of the ’75 and ’84 approval of electing and ordaining elders, and the commissioning pastors policy, which has supporting evidence that is was done to appease the IRS in order to secure certain tax benefits, we now have to deal with the root cause of this issue.
3] This statement by the NAD also confirms that they have not backed down and displays a certain tone of arrogance in choosing to play this now as a political issue using existing policies as an excuse to continue pursuing such a destructive course when they know very well that the WO vote also inferred questioning the policy of electing and commissioning elders and pastors as those opposing WO do so on a biblical basis. Female elders and pastors in this sense is unbiblical.
It may be helpful to remember that the 1984 reaffirmation of the policy to allow ordination of women as elders took place when Elder Neil Wilson was president of the General Conference.
Why? These are two different people. We have gone through an extensive study process only recently, one that Neil did not participate in. It may not be true of you, In, but in the case of some, there is a relentless negativity about the church. Let’s pray for our leaders. The church has made a definite statement. They essentially rejected TOSC 2 and 3 and chose TOSC 1 hermeneutics. We are in a different place now. Let’s pause, catch our breath, and watch. I am convinced that now the insubordinate unions will be dealt with and in a way to win hearts.
Jesus connected the words “watch” and “pray” as you stated in your comment. Let us be faithful in this first. God will guide each one of us to what we then should do.
In my online fellowships, I have met member after member who no longer attends SDA Churches, in favor of small home based Churches, where God’s Word is respected and followed. Many others are preparing to follow this path.
If the leadership on every level does not man up and obey the clearly enunciated Word of God, I fear this is the future for Adventism.
When I became a member, in the eighties, I was required to accept the Fundamental Beliefs, period. There was nothing about kowtowing to Church policies brought in by faithless money chasing worldlings. A suit and an office at the GC do not confer authority to change the Sacred Word of God!
The fact is, if a policy contravenes the clear direction of Scripture, it is our duty to follow God, not man!
I understand the reaction and would not condemn anyone for it but I do not think it is profitable. People who do this run the real risk of losing their own souls by simply cooling off in their homes.Besides, this is a war for the soul of this movement, how does our leaving the church help fight error in the church. It is basically treasonous and cowardly. It is desertion. No, we hold the line where the enemy draws it and we move it forward to gain ground and WE FIGHT with the sword of our mouth just like our Master. We do not RETREAT into our homes!
If this is God’s church and it is deployed, how does our leaving help Him? What good is our sequestration? The best defense is offense. Go back to church PEOPLE! And Fight! You are not helping the Lord AT ALL in your home churches!
Thanks.
God bless you all.
thank you for all who laboured to explain this subject,I am now a better husband,a better father
My wife,when she beholds a true leader at home ,wishes nothing different at church
she must see all these features,not just male features only but all these godly features…….”Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless–not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.”
without any shadow of doubt, i have stood like the roman soldier who stood at the foot of the cross and eventually said “Surely this was the Son Of God”.I saw the arguments come and go.I heard from some preachers i liked as i grew up.I was shocked at some who were ambiguous ,unsure,uncommitted to any conclusions ,big names by the way and some who clearly spent time trying to down grade Paul s advise
i learnt about the human limit to reconstruct the past cultures and the human limit to apply text accurately ,i learnt the meaning of Hermeneutics and exigesis,saw the various techniques used.I never knew that!wow!
i saw the “Adams” who know truly that ‘Eve” has taken the forbidden fruit but choose to go with her decision anyway.I saw Aarons who do not mind making a Golden calf when under pressure even though Moses is still talking with God
I saw Miriam and Aaron challenging Moses and i saw the GC session at the Tent of meeting with Moses and Aaron and Miriam summoned,i noticed how God affirmed Moses and rebuked Mirriam,and i noticed Aaron realising his mistake asking for forgiveness …..and Israel waited for Miriam to recover from Leprosy and then move together!Mercy!
I saw and heard the arguments , i saw true prophets from Judah completely annihilate Jeroboams pulpit teachings , saw them fight the “old prophets from Jeroboam s side “,saw them refuse the invitation to eat at the old prophets house.
i heard big names saying to the prophets from Judah,i am a prophet too”….i heard their views…they spent more time fighting plain scriptures,explaining away clear texts than agreeing …..i was amazed!
i heard “God has never said No to it”.They spend more time trying to explain God s silence and trying to find a YES.They were looking for evidence for what God did not do(God did not ordain women into leadership in family or home,or church) while ignoring evidence of what God actually did(ordained men to lead at home , family and church)
i read article after article,video after video, i saw cartoon animations,and then finally with all this evidence before me i went back to study my responsibility as a husband Then i looked into the mirror,i checked am i a husband of one wife?
Am i blameless?–not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain?
I realized my shortcomings and need to even submit more to Christ
True leaders will notice their need to submit to Christ in order to express Christ- like leadership.Lord help the men!They also need to submit to Christ as Christ submitted to the Father!
wow! finally i said “was this debate worth it”? why debate on gender role assignments ?
my mind wondered into labour ward…when a child is born the midwives immediately check if its a girl or a boy.If there is a slight hint that this is not obvious this becomes a medical emergency and immediately paediatricians get involved.SO GENDER ASSIGNMENT IS A MEDICAL EMERGENCY and so is role clarification in our homes and church.IT IS NO SMALL MATTER……Thank you ordination truth!wow!
The paediatrician has to examine the child and find features that say boy or girl,if not he must refer the child FOR further test .WE DID NOT KNOW WHO NEEDS TO BE ORDAINED male or female AND HENCE REFERRED THE ISSUE FOR FURTHER TESTS.
The test results came from Pauline writings ,Genesis and many other bible chapters and SOP and the results were clear.However some have used different test methods and using another laboratory and hence the debate.
i have learnt to speak the truth without using cutting words or thinking the force of my eloquence will make it truth.Truth is so naked it does not need dressing up
After seeing our journey as a church,i said “surely this was (and is still is) the church of God
God bless Moses,as he leads,God bless Miriam and Aaron as they support Moses even though they have had difficulties ,May Jeroboam who has appointed his own priests ,appreciate the message from the prophet from Judah…..AND MAY THE PROPHETS FROM JUDAH NEVER SIT UNDER THE OAK TREE
Amen
Amen!
Some say that the vote does not affect Union, Conference or Mission policy on ordination. I don’t know where they get their information from. I think from the said Unions. I send you hereby two links to the CURRENT TED Working Policy paragraphs on ordination, that applies for all the Unions in her territory. Every Division has like paragraphs in its WP. Clearly TED does not make policy for the TED for the TED does not ordain, commission of license or credential ministers.
The Union’s Constitution and Bylaws and other policy MUST be in harmony with the Division’s provisions, that MUST be in itself in harmony with the GC’s. Also if the motion pertained only to Divisions, the voting’s NO ensured that the current policy that stays in place can only be the Division’s.
There are a lot of ill informed brothers and sisters, parroting people they look up to, causing confusion all around.
That Unions can have it any way they want is wishful thinking forced into reality by some individuals who pretend to have knowledge they have not. Reading and understanding seems to have become a rare skill, even for theologians.
This trying to convince the people that it reads not what it reads, that special interpretation is needed, is rather misleading….
http://www.promiseministry.nl/images/promise_ministry/prom_min_Linkeddocs/UNIECONGRES/who_hold_ministerial_credentials-licenses.pdf
http://www.promiseministry.nl/images/promise_ministry/prom_min_Linkeddocs/UNIECONGRES/ted_guidelines_e05_10.pdf
How about if you read Elder Dan Jackson’s clarification document on this website and I’ll read the articles on the links you listed? In answer to your question, this website is where I got the information that led me to conclude that it looks like the vote on WO changed nothing substantial. But I’d be overjoyed if I am wrong!
Cathy, the clarification document of Dan Jackson is more or less from that, what Br. Ted Wilson declared to the delegates. He declares: “we maintain the current policy.” Andrew McChesney, Adventist Review, (July 10) declares further: He said the vote has nothing to do with women being ordained as local elders, a practice based on church policy that has been in place for several decades.
Furthermore, he said, the vote was not related to commissioned ministers, who can be male or female under the church’s policy. So let us be clear on what was voted on Wednesday,” Wilson said. “We are now back to our original understanding, and I would strongly urge all to adhere by what has been voted. But do not place into the vote other things which were not listed in the vote… Wilson asked division presidents to clarify the meaning of Wednesday’s vote in their territories.”
I think T. Wilsons argumentation is not correct or only a part of the truth, because the vote of the GC-Session of 1990 is still effective, that forbids WO at all. And the decision in 1990 includes of course, that the WO comes not through the back door, in form of Wo as elders or commissioned ministers. This was coming in, how Mervyn Maxwell writes, by the annual meeting of the GC under the Chairman N. C. Wilson, in order to save tax. The reason and excuse of it was, that this is not a theological question than rather a church-politic.
But is this in realtity not another form of simony? – Only in this case the GC selled the holy ordination of men to the women through the back door and get for this free tax from the state, so that they saved much money.
This was a big mistake or sin against the word of God (an elder has to be a men) and contrary to the vote against WO in 1990, because this decision undermined the will and the meaning of the GC-Session-Vote!
And which policy shall now „maintain“ (?), the big mistake or sin of an annual GC-Meeting or the decision of the GC in session 1990?
All of your info appears to be ‘spot on’, Erich (as my favorite Evangelist, Walter Veith, always says. Oh, how I love that man. I thank God for him every day.) Anyway, Erich, thanks for the word ‘SIMONY’. I just looked that word up and that word is most definitely spot on as well. What a perfect word to describe the actions taken by our church. It is corruption and sin & was perpetrated by our top level leadership. It most certainly opened the door for this further sin of WO (actually called by the NEW name of Commissioned) and the ordination of women to the leadership role of Elder. This is just the loop hole that Satan needed, wasn’t it? Well, God has now allowed us all to be enlightened as to what has gone on in closed chambers & how the wrong decisions made have caused this dissension. Now, we just need a great LEADER to start a Christ-Spirited campaign to educate all members about God’s will for His church leadership and WHY (“man in Our Image” and “because of the Angels”) and the demonic spirit that has been allowed to enter the church because of policy loop holes in the name of Simony which should never have existed.
pst Jeremiah Davis once said in one of his sermon, that WO is the opening way for the LGBT agenda to come into the church. i didn’t take it seriously. BUT, now i see the truth of his statements. we now can google it. SDA churches under the NAD are supporting the LGBT movement (invite the ‘gay choir’, point transgender as elder, baptist lesbian couples, etc). the NAD didn’t do anything to rebuke them.
please pray for God’s church, because pst Walter Veith once said: “God allows apostasy in His church” to separate the remnants from the remnants. may God’s people follow the clear truth from the Bible.
I hope this to be untrue. Did we vote to ordain women elders and pastors (commissioning them) for MONEY?
Noel, please read the article from Br. Maxwell yourself:
http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article/140
How Money Got Us Into Trouble A Very Surprising (and Interesting) History About Women’s Ordination * By C. Mervyn Maxwell, PhD Former Professor of Church
Thanks Erich.
Thanks Eric for the Maxwell Article. Clear and un-embellished. What is impressive is how the church was worked from within and from without, how long term the manouvre, how incremental the stages and tactics. Brilliant. What is very clear is not so much the goal of WO but the total change in the spirit of the church. It has become a Divine operation in profession but a human institution in praxis. Human ideas, tactics and planning. Human operations and power broking. Human language like gender inclusiveness, fairness, equality, gender sensitivity. It is not new. Satan has done this many times before. Infiltration and occupation of the church is his trademark. The Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans. Physically then ideologically Satan has assailed the strongholds of Zion. We have needed to understand that friendship with the world is enmity with God. Adventists have no friends in the world; should not have academic or professional friends among those who actively oppose the will of God in the earth. That does not mean we should be unfriendly but familiarity with those who do not fear God leads to losing our fear of the devil and evil, always. Doubtless these ideas were introduced by “friends” among “friends” in academic and professional circles. With smiles and handshakes and hugs and cordiality the devil advances his deceptive power. How we need to be sober and vigilant and understand that all our loyalties lie with God.
As one looks at WO and what it reveals one understands and respects the long term patient workings of the enemy on many fronts. I do not believe WO is anything save the tip of the iceberg. We have many other things being done in the church and introduced by the enemy and time will reveal them. We have the assurance that everything God has not planted will be uprooted. William Miller’s dream is well on its way to being fulfilled. The Man with the dirt brush….Thank God. While it is true that the enemy will add a lot of rubbish and dirt in the church, God is well able to clean up. Cheer up people. We have a victory, not at San Antonio but in God and way before the foundation of the world. What is just amazing is the phenomenon of rarefied evil and ambition, the insolence and recalcitrance of ambitious men and women who find in themselves their raison detre’. What a wonderful thing it is to serve God. How liberating. What a terrible thing it is to be a tool of man. How wasteful. The whole spirit of WO is clearly the same as what the rebellion has been all about: SELF IMPORTANCE. The trouble is it is not just a WOMEN problem. Satan has been selling it to all and sundry. So wasteful.
Noel, I think, that WO is a good entrence and can be a start for reformation, we pray for. Maxwell has written this article for many years and nothing happened. But today we can see by the issue of WO, that the root of difficulties is money. So GC ordained women as elders and did not only women commissioned as ministers, but other people of administration too, though they are not Ministers! What can we do now? The bible shows us the way clearly.
First the GC-Committee has to acknowlede, that this handlings were sin and it is sin until today. They must stop it, confess these sins before God and openly. It is necessary to ask for forgiveness. Than they should make an call that according to Joel 2 the ministers and churches comes together and ask God for forgiveness about WO as elders, ministers and as commissioned ones. This would be a very good start for further reformation.
The GC has first to decide: will they repent or go the wrong way further on!
If the GC and church is compromising with sin for unity, God cannot longer bless the organization of SDA and not go with them (see Josua and Achan)!
I am not sure we can effectively roll back these faux pas. I do not see the time as being there. I think other issues will hit us sooner. What must happen is the church members must be informed by those who care to do so and take a position to refuse female leadership and pastoral appointments to their churches. Let us start there. This should begin in North American churches: Just reject the implementation of unsound practices at local church level. We may yet save ourselves participating in the sins of other men. We may yet reprogram ourselves to stand faithful to scripture in spirit and practice. That is our duty.